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  1. #1
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    My 4 Stage sump - Need Help

    Ok, so the diagram below is my 4 stage sump. I need to vet some ideas. I think it is pretty straight forward, however I do not know the "flow" requirements that I should be managing to each stage.

    I will drill out each tank to create over-flow's as opposed to using syphons...



    How much flow should go to the Macroalge Fuge? How Much Flow should go to the RDSB? I'm guessing the flow thru the sump will be about 400gph or so. I could tripple-divide the over-flow from SUMP 1 and put outputs to FUGE, RDSB and Sump 3, each with valves to get the right flow rates... Or I could put all of the water into the RDSB and move the water into the FUGE then down into SUMP 3.. or, or.. or... I'm lost.. not sure what I should be doing...

    PLS HELP...

  2. #2
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    In playing with my diagram I realized that my supply from the MT to the Sump is 1.5" DIA and the Return from the SUMP to the MT is 1". I have that reversed on the diagram.

    Also, this is supporting a 92gal bowface display tank and hopefully will add about 100g of water and 100lbs of liverock to the system.

  3. #3
    Senior Member reefmania's Avatar
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    Dang office web filter. Cannot see the diagram. I have three tanks in my fish room all hooked together (sump, fuge, and 90g that I have not decided what it will be). Oh well. I will take a look at your diagram when I get home tonight.
    180g with 2 x 54g corner bowfront bookends. 220 FOWLR in the works, 75g sump, 75g fuge, 75g QT.
    Solaris I4 72", 2 x 150 HQI Outer Orbit Pendants, Reeflo Orca 250, Profilux controller, Tunze 6101's and 6055's, Deltec CA Rx, PM Kalk Mixer, PM SR45 reactors.

  4. #4
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    Very impressive.

    A little overkill but I love it!

    I have used an RDSB before and it worked wonders on my nitrates. You need enough flow to keep anything for settling on top the sand bed and not too much flow that will disturb it.

    I have never really used a refuge so I can’t comment on how much flow they need.

    Good luck!
    29g Biocube, 2x90w Aqua Illumination LED light modules, Vortech MP20, Sapphire BC29 skimmer, GHL Profilux Plus II with 3pump doser.

  5. #5
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    I reworked sump 2 and 3, reversed them basically... because I only want one out-flow from sump one, and need two inflows into the (now) sump 3. Different flow-rates for RDSB and Fuge are/might be required... I also wanted to use a spray-bar for the RDSB (submerged) to keep water moving over all of the sand-bed, and insert an over-flow, again to keep water moving over the entire bed.



    Hope that is visible... I'll stop here until i get some more feedback... Thanks for looking.

    Tim

    Edit: the boxes with the captial B in them represent bulk-head overlfows. i.e drilling holes in tanks...

  6. #6
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    My opinion on sumps is that you only want to have a reasonable amount of water movement, i.e., 400-500 GPH to have a gentle turnover through your system. Do not use your return pump to create additional flow into your display tank.
    That being said, all the flow you can reasonably expect through your sump is 400 - 500 GPH, no matter which section. Since you are cascading the whole system, it should not be able to go faster or slower than what your pump is putting out into your main tank. The 1.5" drain will handle quite a bit of water volume. Water out has to equal water in, otherwise water ends up on the floor.

    I am not so sure putting in a type of spray bar into your RDSB would be worthwhile. The water would back up and take the easiest route anyway. If you see that detrius is settling, add a small power head into that section.

    You might want to make sure that the bulkheads between each tank are all 1.5" to match the incoming line.

    What about when you turn the return pump off? Your last tank has to be able to handle all the overflow from each tank. It may be a good trick to get the water levels correct so that when the return pump is off you don't have 40 gallons of water in a 30 gallon tank!! The evaporation rate will increase quite a bit from your basic 90 gallon tank to 200 plus gallon capacity now, so you need room for daily top-ups. The return pump usually requires a certain operating volume.

    In sump one, make sure you have enough room for your skimmer, now and in the future if you are thinking of getting something bigger down the road. It looks like you have enough room, but skimmer foot prints can be fairly big.

    You might even be able to elimate the baffle system in that sump entirely. If you have the baffles in the last tank, that should take care of any bubbles. Since the water will pass through each tank and fall into the next, I think that you will have bubbles anyway from one tank to the next. Could be wrong though.

    Just a few thoughts that come to mind. Good luck.

  7. #7
    Senior Member reefmania's Avatar
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    I am wondering why you want to cascade the tanks. You can keep it simple by keeping them at the same level and drill the bulkheads below the planned waterline. This is how I set my tanks.



    My sump is the tank right front. Back right is my fuge and back left is a 90g (former DT) that I am not sure what I will use for. Each tank is drilled and connected by a 1.5" bulkhead and pipe. i added a ball valve so I can take one off line if I choose. The return pump is on the right, plumbed between the sump and fuge. I have 508g display tanks plumbed into this system. The drains run into the 90g, the protein skimmer (external) and the sump. Each has ball valves to help regulate the flow.

    I added the 90g last weekend because there was so much flow going through the sump that any bubbles in the water did not have time to rise out of the water column.

    rudall makes a great point in water overflow in the lowest level tank. My setup allows lots of flexibility in water level, so I still have a couple inches of room after I shut the return pump.
    180g with 2 x 54g corner bowfront bookends. 220 FOWLR in the works, 75g sump, 75g fuge, 75g QT.
    Solaris I4 72", 2 x 150 HQI Outer Orbit Pendants, Reeflo Orca 250, Profilux controller, Tunze 6101's and 6055's, Deltec CA Rx, PM Kalk Mixer, PM SR45 reactors.

  8. #8
    Former Moderator a4twenty's Avatar
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    while i am huge fan of over engineering just about everything :b2:, you need to keep in mind the KISS theory. all of these ( or at least most ) can be incorporated into one sump with some good planning and a some piece of mind.

    how big is your sump room??

    everyone has a different theory of how things 'should' run but here's a quick sketch of how my 60G sump works, incorporating all of these methods ( except the drain for W/C but is is coming ).


    `

    120S RR tank with 60G basement sump / fuge

    Return Pump: Little Giant 4-MDQX SC
    Water Movement: MP40W, Seio 1500, (2) Hydor K4's
    Lighting: 400W SE MH with 10K Venture
    Skimmer: Euro-Reef RS250 with gate valve
    Other: RODI, RDSB, PO4/AC reactor


    My Gallery

  9. #9
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    My Sump Room is about 6feet by 5 feet in "workable" area for this system. That means that there is no way to cascade 4 tanks side-by-side b/c that would be 6feet+ and I do not have the room.

    Why am I cascading? Well for water movement basically, however if I didn't cascase, then the sump would split the "over-flow from power-outtate" across all systems/tanks and that is an advantage. I like cascading because it visually implies "flow"... but I'm not hung-up on it. Do you guys thing that keeping them, at the same level would proivde sufficent circulation?

    I could go to a single sump design, for sure. However, I have already found 3 of the 4 tanks, used and cheap for the design so I would be encouraged to stick with that design.


    I do need to figureout the auto-top-off system, there are threads I can research on for that... and I need to figure out the flow-requirements for the fuge.

    At this point, I believe that I will have water enter SUMP 3 over the DSB and thru some "slits" flow into the Fuge where it will exit SUMP 3 and enter Sump 4.

    I am also looking at a "taller" version of the sump-tank for the 4th sump to allow for Power-Outtate Over-Flow more easily... but honestly, that is something that you'd better get right, no matter the "fail-safe" and not over-fill your system... amiright?

    @a4Twenty; How much flow (GPH ish) goes thru your Fuge? Why do you have substrate? The real life fuge's i've seen are bare-bottom.

    @everyone; Cascading the sumps vs keeping them level... Anyone got any "reasons" for one vs the other? Other than power-outtate water management being better with all sumps on the same level.

  10. #10
    Senior Member reefmania's Avatar
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    Re: cascade vs level: rudall made a good point in that water will tumble from one tank to another. This has the potential of creating bubbles in each tank. A level system gives greater linear distance for bubbles to escape. Having said this, the flow for a 92g may be such that the water movement through the tanks may be low enough to allow the bubbles to escape. In my case, I am using a hammerhead that is probably pushing 3500g (conservative estimate) per hour through my sump and fuge. I need the extra length provided by the tanks to dissipate the bubbles.
    180g with 2 x 54g corner bowfront bookends. 220 FOWLR in the works, 75g sump, 75g fuge, 75g QT.
    Solaris I4 72", 2 x 150 HQI Outer Orbit Pendants, Reeflo Orca 250, Profilux controller, Tunze 6101's and 6055's, Deltec CA Rx, PM Kalk Mixer, PM SR45 reactors.

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