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  1. #1
    Senior Member tiffany's Avatar
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    Question dormant diseases

    I am aware that itch can remain in a DSB and rocks after the fish/s have been cured or removed, and that it can lay dormant in the rocks or DSB and then infect a weaker fish. And that one way to eradicate it from a tank is to starve the parasite thus removing all fish for a minimum of a month, so it doesn't have a host.
    As the parasite generally only attacks weak or stressed fish, and assuming the remaining fish are healthy and uninfected does this then also starve the parasite? As it would then technically have no host!! Can these fish develop an acquired immunity to the parasite?
    I noticed that some of the fish in my LRS had what seemed to be itch (I think that's how it's spelt) and after inquiring I discovered that all the Aquariums use a main filter system etc for all the tanks, thereby making all the fish susceptible. I'm sure that all LRS have had this problem, and I have seen it i the past. All the fish are quarantined before entering the stores.
    So then am I also prone to purchasing a host fish? And can the LRS's completely eradicate the parasite?

    Tiff

  2. #2
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    Tiff,
    "Most" of the better LFS's will usualy have at least 1 or 2 tanks that are seperated from the main filter system to be used as a quarantine tank.
    When you hear that aquariums ALWAYS have Ick present is a bit generalized. IF you quarantine the tank itself and run it with absolutely no hosts for the full recommended time, then technically there should be no more Ick whatsoever in the system. What they mean when they say it is that lots of fish will have the parasite in one way or another on them and if they are healthy and stress free, then the paraiste has nothing to propogate on, but if the fish is the opposite, then the parasite can get a foothold and grow. If you are buyins fish from a LFS that does not have seperate tanks, then the answer is "YES" that you are taking a chance and possibly infecting your whole tank each time you add something.

  3. #3
    Senior Member tiffany's Avatar
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    Toutouche
    I have asked around the LRS's and found out that all those I asked do use the same filter system. (I assume that there's a cost benefit analysis associated. As the reef market here isn't very big and the cost of extra filter systems out-ways the loss of a few fish...This mind you is a presumption).
    I was surprised to find this out about the filter systems myself......
    Except for their display tanks, and no matter how much you plead or offer them they won't sell the fish from display!
    Surprisingly enough there aren't too many LRS here. I live centrally and have an hours drive to the closest store...
    When I said that all have LRS have Ich, I was meaning that I've seen it in many stores from time to time, from F/W to S/W.
    I know that one imports from Indonesia and quarantines them himself, another has the fish quarantined at another premises belonging to the importer, and one that has just opened up has no Q/T on the premises...(and the owner doesn't seem to know much about fish and reefs?!?!) though I'm sure they are Q/T else where, I was going to go there in the next wk if I can, and since I have 6 assignments and an exam in 4 weeks, I'm sure that I'll find the time, I'll need the break!

    I have a Q/T tank, can you tell me if it's sufficient? As I obviously need to do some serious home Q/Ting!!!!
    90litre plastic tub with lid, or 20 litre with lid/plastic, 1 to 2 kg L/R and air-stones, and heater, I have a spare filter that I can use but I've been told that it's not necessary(LRS). The Q/T is in the bathroom as the space is plenty there but I think that the moisture may be a problem. It can temporarily be moved to the Lounge, if needed but I would prefer to use the 20 litre in that situation for reasons that I don't have the time to go into now. Will a 3' fish be ok in a 20 litre Q/T for 4 weeks if need be? After a day or so should I freshwater dip any potential new inhabitants? to be sure?
    I don't feel these are needless questions, (and I would like confirmation on my ideas), as I feel that I know enough about how they run the stores to have to take extra precautions.
    In addition what do you know about Methylene blue? It's a dye that kills ich and and parasites and supposedly copper free and can be added to the tank.
    And if I may ask one more question, kolic garlic.(forgive my spelling error) Capsules or liquid? and in what dose and how is it to be dispensed in the food?
    Thanks for your help, again.
    maybe I should add that as my signature block, (just a little self depreciating humor there!)
    Tiffany
    :angel:

  4. #4
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    Hey Tiff,
    I'll try to answer ALL your questions. About the LRS quarantining, around here most have at least 1 or 2 that are on a seperate system. As you said and I understand completely, none in your area have the samething. Yes, you are right about the cost thing and you also have to remember that the store is in this to make money as I'm sure you already aware of.
    You say they do their own quarantining and some of them are quarantined at the suppliers. This is good... to a point. If they get stressed out at the store or during transportation home to your place, then the whole cycle can start all over agian and there can be an outbreak once again. It's a tough decision about the quarantining. One side is that everytime you place something new directly in your tank, you run the chance of infecting your whole tank. Others go by the thinking ( and I'm this way too as I've never used a quarantine) that transport from store to home stresses a fish, you place it in your Q tank hoping it will get relaxed, yet it is not the system it will be in permanently. The tank is not as full of rock and such as the main tank. Once it gets accustomed and relaxed, out it comes into yet another brand new space for it.. the main tank. So, once again it has to deal with moving, diff water parameters, diff environment, other fish and things possibly harassing it, etc... It can very easily become stressed out yet another time and have an outbreak. Everytime a fish is moved and stressed it can weaken it. I myself believe that if your tank is healthy and matured enough and all the other inhabitants are healthy, then the system and the other livestock can easily ward off getting Ick if a new fish has it. It's all about the individual fish's immune system being strong enough. I have actually heard rather often about people who have quarantine tanks losing fish MORE often than those who don't have one.
    As for the store display tank, believe me that the store knows very well about the whole stress thing and is one of the reasons why they won't sell from their display tank. It's all about not stressing the tank and other inhabitants, then to a lesser degree, they basically can't catch the animals with all the rock and corals, etc... A tank has to be left alone as much as possible and not stressed out. Everytime you play in it, this is not natural for the animals.
    It depends on what fish you keep in the 20L for quarantine. Remember that the same rules apply to a main tank as to the quarantine. It would not be a good idea to keep 3 Tangs in quarantine together in this small tub the same way that Tangs need space and a bigger main tank. Use this way of thinking and you'll have your answer to this.
    The Meth blue I have heard about, but I'm not sure it is safe for a reef because corals absorb nutrients from the water and they will absorb the dye at the sametime. Maybe someone else can answer this, but I myself would be wary of using it.
    I know of the Kolic garlic too. The liquid would be better but if there is only capsules you can also use this. As for the dose, there is no exact amount, just let the food soak in it for a couple minutes. The pills can be crushed and melted in RO water and the liquid can be applied directly as a couple of drops.

  5. #5
    Senior Member tiffany's Avatar
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    Smile

    thanks for your feedback.
    I'll adjust the Q/T tank size according to the fish.
    I do agree with you about the loss due to constant changes from tank to tank. (catch 22)
    All the fish are healthy in the tank and have come in contact with ich from a new fish(no surprises there!) and all are fine and doing well.
    In regard to methylene blue I've been doing some research, and I'll let you know what I find. There some products that are supposedly reef safe, and I've e-mailed the companies asking for detailed information, and will also look at other resources.
    thanks for the kolic garlic advice, I've been able to find a retailer that sells it in liquid form and I think that may be the best.
    I hope you don't mind all the questions, but I'm trying to prevent rather than cure.
    Thanks again
    Tiff:angel:

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by tiffany

    I hope you don't mind all the questions, but I'm trying to prevent rather than cure.
    Not at all, that's what these boards are all about!! If only I knew of them when I was setting everything up in the beginning. Would have been WAY less expensive!!!
    As for the Kyolic garlic. You can always use fresh garlic too and it's cheaper. The Kyolic stuff is not cheap at all!! For the fresh garlic, simply squeeze a few cloves directly in about 2 oz. of RO water, pieces and all, stir it around every now and then and cover it tightly and keep it in the fridge. You'll notice that the water will have a slight garlicy tint to it which shows that there is garlic stuff dissolved in it. Use this as the dose to your food. It can be kept for up to 2 weeks at a time. It works just as well as the Kyolic stuff and is what I have used in the past before I was able to find the bottled brand.

  7. #7
    Senior Member tang_man_montreal's Avatar
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    I'll go on to say that while many people don't believe in QT tanks, there are others that swear by them...
    As Toutouche mentioned, a QT tank can be a stressful environment, especially if it's something that is "whipped up on the spur of the moment".

    A QT tank, as with any tank, takes proper planning. I actually consider my QT tank to be an ISOLATION tank rather than a QT. I say this because it is set up with a sandbed, liverock, lighting... It's basically a small reef. I keep new additions there for 3-4 weeks before adding them to the main tank. This way, the fish can be kept under close supervision. If it is weak or sick, it can easily be removed from this tank, and put into a hospital tank with water from where he was. No acclimation, and medication can then begin.

    I've never had to resort to the hospital tank yet.

    Any medications, including meth blue, should only be used in a separate hospital tank (or QT tank).
    I am Homer of BORG... Prepare to be..OOOO!! DONUT!!!!!!

  8. #8
    Senior Member tiffany's Avatar
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    What is a good Meth Blue product to use?
    I bought the Kolic garlic today and your right it's not cheap! Each 2ml is equivalent to 3 grams of garlic. With there being 40 drops in 2 ml. What dose would I use and how would I apply it?
    I agree that a permanent Q/T tank is a better idea. I'll look into improving on the one I have.
    Thanks again

  9. #9
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    In response to fish that are sick...
    some people may feel that if only one of their fish is sick in their tank, then they may medicate the whole tank so the others don't get it too. I think that if the others are strong and healthy they won't catch anything, so why medicate them all!? My opinion would be to Quarantine that one fish and medicate him seperately.

  10. #10
    Senior Member tiffany's Avatar
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    kimik
    you're correct. (I believe I was researching on the potential of an out break in that post too)
    As ich needs a host fish, then a tank of healthy ones provides no host. technically. the ich will live in LR and DSB's, all it needs is a hassled fish and there it is, again. It takes about 3 months (I think) for ich to die without a host fish.
    There are many pools of thought on this, as for meds in the tank, Kick-ich has been reported by those who have used it in their reef systems, to be reef safe as advertised, others use garlic, others QT with meth green/blue or copper. Most agree that a hyposalinity bath, or even to keep them in hyposalinity for 4-6weeks is a good idea.
    One LRS down here, keeps all the fish they sell in hyposalinity (1.009-10) in the store permanently.
    I don't know if inverts can catch it. Any thoughts? Logically I think yes, that the parasite would be non specific as it can live in LR and DSB's.
    "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
    - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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