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Thread: Salts

  1. #1
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    Salts

    I was at bulk barn yesterday, and I came across sea salt. It says naturally evaporated sea salt from sea water (It looks just like IO that i use) at 59 cents/lb.

    Is this safe to use?, I think I could save some money when I move to a bigger setup.

    Venki

  2. #2
    Senior Member tang_man_montreal's Avatar
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    You may wanna read this article which explains why you can't use evaporated sea water salt.

    http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...io/default.asp
    I am Homer of BORG... Prepare to be..OOOO!! DONUT!!!!!!

  3. #3
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    Venki,
    I think I'm correct in assuming that salt is good for taking baths in only.
    Not for aquarium use.

    It looks like IO because well..., salt looks like salt!!

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    Being post graduate Chemical Engineer from OSU (been in IT since graduation), I could talk about the different characteristics of salt, but I guess this would be the wrong audience.

    But I'll take your advice and not use it.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by venkiw
    Being post graduate Chemical Engineer from OSU (been in IT since graduation), I could talk about the different characteristics of salt, but I guess this would be the wrong audience.

    But I'll take your advice and not use it.
    Hmm?? By this response, it seems like you're doubting, and trivializing the reply??!!!
    If you assume you know more, then why ask?? Use it and satisfy yourself and please DO enlighten us on the different characteristics of salt??
    By the way and out of curiosity..., first you say it looks just like IO salt ( along the same lines as if it quacks like a duck..., then it MUST be a duck!).
    Now, exactly what way IS this??!!! Is it because it's white??!!! Or is it because you happened to have a mcroscope in your pocket when you were at the bulk barn??
    Then, you reply that you seem to know all the different characteristics of salt ( so I assume that you know of "other" animals that quack??!!).

  6. #6
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    Hey Toutouche,

    YOu have given some really sound advice in the past, and I for one will not trivialise your response.

    But you should watch what you say, When you quote "salt is salt" it makes the person asking the question look like a dumb@ss, I am sure that is not the objective of this forum, so I would advice you to use some restraints when answering a question.

    Still no hard feeings.

    Venki Worathur

  7. #7
    Senior Member tang_man_montreal's Avatar
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    Venkiw,

    In the article that I referred you to, it states the reason why you cannot use evaporated sea salt... Here I'll show you...


    If you evaporate seawater to dryness, then try to redissolve it, you will find that not all of it goes back into solution. Why? For the same reasons that there are enormous “evaporite” (sedimentary rock, such as gypsum, that originates from evaporation of seawater in an enclosed basin) deposits in Texas, Oklahoma, other parts of the American west and around the world. Some relatively insoluble minerals form as seawater is concentrated, and adding water does not return them to their pre-evaporated state.


    Here's some more...


    As seawater continues to dry, with between 10 to 25 percent of the water remaining, gypsum is formed (Millero and Sohn 1992). This is a process of geophysical significance. The gypsum sands of White Sands National Monument (in New Mexico) were ultimately derived from the evaporation of an ancient sea, and then the subsequent dissolution of that calcium sulfate and its reprecipitation and dispersment from a drying inland lake (which had no river outlets to feed it).


    As you can see, when evaporated see salt is hydrated again, it does not return to it's pre-evaporated state, chemically speaking.
    It is for this reason that we must use synthetic sea salt.

    Hope that helps.
    I am Homer of BORG... Prepare to be..OOOO!! DONUT!!!!!!

  8. #8
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    tang_man thanks for the article. It wa an interesting one to read, but I was not convinced going just by that article) for a few reasons:

    You are right, If you take sea water and eveporated in a beaker by leaving outside, you are going to be causing a exothermic rehydration of gypsum (as in setting of cement), with an entropy that is non zero, which makes it totally irreversible. It is misleading to publish such articles as they tend to misinform the public, but not everyone goes by ethics of the profession

    But natural sea salt is not done in a beaker, they have specially designed lagoons and processes designed by Chemical Engineers which seperate the gypsum, carbonates and the halites from the salt.

    The halites forms roughly 87% of synthetic salt, the caso4 seperated as gypsum (caso4.2h20) can readily be added to saline water, the same goes for the carbonates and these are relatively inexpensive products.

    The trace element composition in synthetic sea salt and natural sea water is the only thing that would be left to deal with at this point.

    We as chemical engineers are cautioned not to go just by what we read, we are trained to digest every info with a pinch of 'Salt'

  9. #9
    Senior Member tang_man_montreal's Avatar
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    Venkiw,

    I honestly can't comment any more on this subject, as it exceeds my knowledge of chemistry

    You could always try evaporated sea salt in a test environment (ie: rubbermaid) and try your luck at setting it to an SG of 1.025 with an inexpensive fish and see what happens.....


    However, you'll never be sure if the proper trace elements are actually there... or can you?
    I am Homer of BORG... Prepare to be..OOOO!! DONUT!!!!!!

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by venkiw
    tang_man thanks for the article. It wa an interesting one to read, but I was not convinced going just by that article) for a few reasons:

    You are right, If you take sea water and eveporated in a beaker by leaving outside, you are going to be causing a exothermic rehydration of gypsum (as in setting of cement), with an entropy that is non zero, which makes it totally irreversible. It is misleading to publish such articles as they tend to misinform the public, but not everyone goes by ethics of the profession

    But natural sea salt is not done in a beaker, they have specially designed lagoons and processes designed by Chemical Engineers which seperate the gypsum, carbonates and the halites from the salt.

    The halites forms roughly 87% of synthetic salt, the caso4 seperated as gypsum (caso4.2h20) can readily be added to saline water, the same goes for the carbonates and these are relatively inexpensive products.

    The trace element composition in synthetic sea salt and natural sea water is the only thing that would be left to deal with at this point.

    We as chemical engineers are cautioned not to go just by what we read, we are trained to digest every info with a pinch of 'Salt'
    Venki,
    O.k.... O.K... We get the picture... you're a chemical engineer!!! Although to me this means nothing, as in any situation, just because you have a degree in something does not make you an " expert" in everything in that field!!
    What time have you spent actually working formulating synthetic salts? What expertise do you have in "salt".. and I'm specifically saying " salt"??!! Not other things pertaining to chemicals.
    In your first post you simply asked if that certain "bargain" barn salt is the same as IO. Now, it doesn't take a "chemical engineer" degree to answer that. It's not rocket science you know. I'll bet it's either plain table salt, or bath salt, nothing else. You think you would've been the first in history to come up with this idea if the cheap salt is good enough for aquariums?
    You say you're "learning" about the SW hobby. Then listen to people with more experience. I gave you my opinion and Vince even gave you an article to read, yet you still don't "believe" it. As I said, go and buy a bag of the stuff and make yourself some good cheap water for your tank. But!!! Come back and tell us what has survivied afterwards.
    By the way, I DID refrain myself when posting the previous reply. You should have seen what I originally wrote because as I said, I don't give a hoot about titles people have!!! You could be a nuclear physicist with nobel prizes and unless you've actually done research and work pertaining to the exact topic at hand, I won't believe you either.
    If you say I have no patience, you are right about that at least.., but I'll tell you why. Being on the Team RC and answering many questions over there, I have had my fill of people asking something, then babbling on about how they know more or better. If you know more ( and you seem to be the salt expert now) don't ask..., try instead.
    It seems like you're looking too deep for something that isn't there or is stuck right under your nose!!! It's "HOBBY SALT" for the SW HOBBY AQUARIUM". Not to be mistaken for super salt that will revolutionize the whole salt industry.

    Here's another idea. Since we apparantly know nothing about this, go to RC and in the chemistry forum ask Randy Holmes Farley the same question, he's chemist and expert who is more on "tour level" . I'm dying to see what he responds with.

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